Ayre总裁说“玄学"

Flysoftter

交易区新帖推荐

原帖由 小白 于 2011-9-24 19:34 发表 听纯正女声啊。

所以我喜欢中国音响

南开米饭

当时的情况是两个编辑做602的测评。602用了NOS解码的设计，天然的指标差听感好。 于是负责主观听音那个被毒倒，负责仪器测试的在摇头。我就写了这段，发表在2010年5月刊stereophile的602测评后面。 看看跟首帖是不是有不谋而合的地方。
http://www.stereophile.com/conte ... ufacturers-comments


Editor: Thanks a lot for Stephen Mejias's excellent writing. We released new firmware at the end of February to solve the noise problem when the power runs out. I am very sorry to have this bug in the early-version firmware. The reason for the noise is that when the player is almost out of power, the battery voltage becomes very low. In the new firmware, we improved the voltage a little bit so that the player will be automatically shut down before the noise begins.
About the measurements in general: Before we designed the HM-602, we tried many modern low-cost D/A converter chips, such as the CS4398, CS4334, CS4344, and ESS9023. Most of these DAC chips measure much better than the TDA1543. However, there are two very important reasons we did not use them: 1) Most entry-level DACs do not do well with an active low-pass filter running at a low voltage. 2) None of them has a good squarewave spectrum, which is actually very important to sound quality.
According to our results, the NOS TDA1543 design (bypassing the digital filter) might be a solution that can provide an analog-like or musical sound signature in low-voltage and low-cost situations. However, an NOS DAC usually measures worse than a normal DAC design. It was a difficult decision for a low-cost portable solution: better measurements, or a better subjective listening experience? Finally, we decided to follow our ears, not the measurements. That is a very important reason why Stephen Mejias had such positive things to say about the HM-602's sound quality (eg, better than the iPod), but John Atkinson got overall negative measured results (eg, worse than the iPod).
About high jitter in USB DACs: According to the measurement result, when the HM-602 is used as a USB DAC, the jitter is much higher than when it is used as a player. This is actually very common in portable USB DACs: The USB receiver chip in a portable device normally gets its power directly from the computer's USB socket, along with a lot of high-frequency noise from the computer's power supply. Because a laptop computer is a very compact design, its simplified power supply creates even more noise than a desktop's. One of the solutions is to use a desktop with a good power supply; for example, a fanless power supply.
Further thinking: As someone with more than 15 years of experience in scientific research, I have noticed that there is always something that cannot be verified by current scientific theory. There are many weird observations in the lab, and some of them become the beginning of a new theory or technology. For example, blackbody radiation cannot be explained by Newton's classic mechanics, but the research into blackbody radiation become the beginning of modern quantum-mechanics theory.
I believe that to reproduce sound is to actually reproduce a part of the real world. A 100% perfect clone of a natural sound is theoretically impossible, but reproductions of that sound will become more real as the technology develops. Modern sound-measurement instruments have been developed for about 100 years, and are definitely helpful in designing audio products. On the other hand, human ears are more important, because they have been developed over billions of years, and continue to evolve. In addition, the goal of designing audio products is to satisfy human ears, not instruments. That is why audio design is still somehow a state of art, not a state of technology. However, as a scientist, I am confident in the development of science. I believe that, sooner or later, scientists will discover at least part of the solution of why subjective listening sometimes does not agree with the measurements.—Fang Bian, Head-Direct


[ 本帖最后由 南开米饭 于 2011-9-25 01:22 编辑 ]

Lovefancy

Ayre 产品虽好, 但如果玩箱子, 抛开素质, 在亚洲, 我觉得首要考虑是结像比例, 空间是否足够容纳ayre的那种高频高度和大结像特性

無事不瘋魔

双盲我个人认为简直是折磨人。
不如拿条熟悉的线和基线在自己熟悉的器材和音乐上盲听分辨哪条是基线哪条是高级线呗。
这类盲听测试我个人觉得，部分烧友没事闲着蛋疼的时候也喜欢做的。
不算难，但不排除做盲听时：“因各种压力，导致心里暗示反而听不出来的情况”。

flyinghail

就好像不是所有人都能闻出香水的区别，不是所有人能评鉴美食，也不是所有人能看到颜色、听到声音
如果你不能分辨，你没法知道到底对方能不能分辨，或者分辨的对与错
这是你自己的真实，但是不等于是别人的真实
你可以无视你无法分辨的，但是你不能肯定就一定没人能分辨


对于普通人来说，最根本的问题是：你要不要去追求那些你明明分辨不出来的“好东西”

[ 本帖最后由 flyinghail 于 2011-9-25 03:53 编辑 ]

kell

阅~~~

chaisan

康德说过，人类的理性不能认识客观世界。

一群鱼在讨论鱼缸外的世界，对于这群鱼来说外面的世界都是弯曲和变形的。

[ 本帖最后由 chaisan 于 2011-9-25 07:06 编辑 ]

小白

原帖由 soloclub 于 2011-9-24 22:31 发表
说不出道理，那凭什么理论来设计那些玄物的呢，真是一样一样去试啊

还就是一样一样试、靠耳朵鉴别那个好听的。

世界第一木耳

之所以说是玄学，是因为听感这个东西很难量化表达。

数字图像处理里有个东西叫“等偏爱曲线”，完全就是个主观量。
定义为随着比特率或者像素的变化，以人为主观感受到的图像的质量用一条曲线来表示。

而音响里没这东西，如果脚钉，避震，线材都能用等偏爱类似这种东西表达，就不会有这么多问题了。

[ 本帖最后由 世界第一木耳 于 2011-9-25 09:57 编辑 ]

nadesicozhao

原帖由 Flysoftter 于 2011-9-25 00:04 发表
所以我喜欢中国音响

放口水歌一流

gaomx

原帖由 flyinghail 于 2011-9-25 03:46 发表 就好像不是所有人都能闻出香水的区别，不是所有人能评鉴美食，也不是所有人能看到颜色、听到声音如果你不能分辨，你没法知道到底对方能不能分辨，或者分辨的对与错这是你自己的真实，但是不等于是别人的真实你 ...

但是分辨香水，分辨茶水，这种电视上面做了各种比赛测试
已经完全证明是可以不需要看的。另外两杯茶的区别普通人完全可以分辨出来
是否味道一样，只不过普通人竟然没有那么多不能判断出是哪种

那hifi的玄学有做过闭眼睛的辨听吗？
如果觉得一个人能力有限，可以很多烧友聚集起来一起听，然后大家讨论出来一个结果也行
只要满足闭上眼睛这个条件就可以。但是有这样的证明吗？没看到

其实对于这个问题我本不想说太多，这个是会触及到很多人的饭碗
但是别动不动就搬出来科学还不成熟，还无法解释的屁话。
请问说出这样话的人，你们有几个真正懂得电路设计，有几个真正懂得数字电路？

gaomx

原帖由 世界第一木耳 于 2011-9-25 09:56 发表 之所以说是玄学，是因为听感这个东西很难量化表达。数字图像处理里有个东西叫“等偏爱曲线”，完全就是个主观量。定义为随着比特率或者像素的变化，以人为主观感受到的图像的质量用一条曲线来表示。而音响 ...

不是没有，而是根本就做不出来。。
两个电视效果有区别，我相信只要两个东西摆在一起，世界上绝大多数的人可以分辨出来，可以说90%的人
会有一样的判断，尽管他们喜好不一样但是图像的区别还是能达成一致的。
但是hif则不行，恰恰相反90%的人甚至更多人完全没法分辨区别
剩下的一点点能分辨区别的人，闭上眼睛也无法分辨了

严谨的科学工业品，参数是需要明确的实验证明的。hifi这种差别没办法被证明
那怎么能说有差别

gaomx

为什么没有人出来质疑耳机有区别，为什么没有人质疑耳放，没有人质疑解码声音不同？
但是线材，避震确频繁遭到质疑？

gaomx

电源线，信号线，避震不要说科学解释不了。这东西科学完全可以解释的很清楚，就是会有区别但是区别能翻达到闭上眼睛区分的程度？实际对人的耳朵分辨能力做测试到万分之一的区别几乎就无法分辨了。 但是数字线，尤其是接收端是异步，这种东西和现行的理论是冲突的，而不是无法解释的问题了。但是在更高级更精密的测试试验中，还没有任何证据证明现在的教科书上面的理论是错误的。

[ 本帖最后由 gaomx 于 2011-9-25 11:22 编辑 ]

gaomx

这个什么所谓的总裁，一面说自己的qb9采用异步模式隔离前面的影响，一面说需要一个更好的usb线。
曾经有一个人卖兵器，他拿起矛说这是世界上最锋利的矛可以刺穿一切盾，
然后又拿起盾说我这是世界上最坚硬的盾可以抵挡住一切矛。